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<  Newcomers  ~  A7 period modifications

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:57 pm
Posts: 12Location: Bo'nessJoined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
"You need to bear in mind A7 is a purely Scottish class, so defined by 'local' rules and scrutieers. The MSA rules you're looking at apply to their definitions of road / modified / racing, which are our 'A1/B1 thru A6/B6' classes."



Sooo- AS I'm building from scratch, what rules do I follow? the MSA roadgoing (probably specialist given the production numbers), or what? Surely we have to have specific rules set out rather than rely on Scrutineer's views on what's acceptable? Ian Carter was building 1220cc engines in period, so a big capacity imp would seem to me to be a period modification? I'm happy to build to whatever spec will be deemed legal, but I do need to know what the rules are, to avoid problems later on. All advice appreciated..


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:11 pm
User avatarPosts: 950Location: EnglandshireJoined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:00 pm
Firstly the good news is that you are asking before commiting thebuild, it is far too common that people build a car then gen annoyed that some apparently innocuous modification pushes their genuine road car into the Modified classes, or even Sports Libre!



Now you need to understand that the MSA set the national road map or playing field by defining the Categories which all Hillclimb and Sprint cars must fall into.

By defining what can or not be done to a Production (or specialist production) car it allows everyone with such a car to know they will fundamentally not be placed in competition against a 4dw 205 with coil over wishbone suspension and small block V8 chevy engine etc.



Working within the rules of the categories it is then open for clubs and championships to define classes with possibly much greater restriction such only Yellow 205s build between 1986 and 1987 running Goodyear Grand Prix S tyres. etc.



In this case the Scottish championship class A7 is class working within the production categories designed to give some older and possibly less competitive cars a place to run on a more level paying field. so fundamentaly you will need to comply with the MSA regs for the category and then take into account the specific restrictions placed by the championship or class you would like to be part of.



The question you need to answer is what you really want to do with the car. Building it with purely the Scottish class A7 in mind would appear to be very limiting. It is highly likely that once the bug gets you you will want to go to other venues or areas of motorsport etc. so some things is allowed in A7 may exclude you from a "classic" class elsewhere running to more strict definitions?



Sorry no definitive answer but perhaps some food for thought.



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:26 pm
Posts: 12Location: Bo'nessJoined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Hi yes, thanks for that. As far as I can see the MSA specialist production road going class is pretty clear, including the head and block rules, what I'm not so clear about is precisely what else can be done as "period modification" in class A7. Where exactly are the rules/regs written so I can check 'em out? Doh!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:37 pm
User avatarPosts: 615Location: AberdeenJoined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:47 pm
Eric Kiltie wrote:
g4addicted wrote:
... Rob McKinna is the only one who can give a definitive answer ...


Image




Phone Rob he is the only man who can help you



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:01 am
Posts: 12Location: Bo'nessJoined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Hi yes, I'll be speaking to Rob, but am I being told that there's nothing in writing covering what's allowed in addition to the MSA specialist production road going regs in relation to A7?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:30 am
User avatarPosts: 950Location: EnglandshireJoined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:00 pm
Stakhanovite wrote:
Hi yes, thanks for that. As far as I can see the MSA specialist production road going class is pretty clear, including the head and block rules, what I'm not so clear about is precisely what else can be done as "period modification" in class A7. Where exactly are the rules/regs written so I can check 'em out? Doh!




I think the point is what Less you can do rather than what more as the class reg cannot allow modifications beyond the definition of the category in which it fits.





For example it may have been normal "in period" to swap the Solex with a Webber , but perhaps something like fitting electronic ignition whilst allowed by the MSA category might not be allowed in A7 as it was not available "in period".



It may also perhaps have been a period modification to fit a ford engine in place of the imp and whilst it was done "in period" it would not now be allowed by the definition of the MSA production category regs.



I have just re-read the definition in the Scottish regs and they seam quite clear to me (the blue book MSA definitions are perhaps a different matter).



Cars in classes A1 to A8 are cars as defined by the requirements of Section S10 and S11 of the current MSA

Yearbook as Road Going Production Cars and Road Going Specialist Production Cars.

Class A7 is open to cars manufactured prior to 1 January 1980, or of a type that was in production prior to that

date. Only period modifications are permitted with the exception of tyres (allowances will be made for older

cars (e.g. veteran or vintage cars), where the available options are limited due to the size and type of tyre

required).



As stated Rob is the final arbiter of whether a car is eligible for the Scottish champoinship classes.



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:58 am
User avatarPosts: 1809Location: InverebrieJoined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:56 pm
SportsLibre wrote:
It may also perhaps have been a period modification to fit a ford engine in place of the imp and whilst it was done "in period" it would not now be allowed by the definition of the MSA production category regs.




But... if the G15 is a 'Specialist Production Car thanks to the low production numbers, then he can fit an engine from another source and still meet the MSA requirements. To compete in A7, it would only need to be an engine available in period.



Personally, I think a G15 should have an Imp engine. Provided that everything is recogniseable externally and the internal engineering was available in period, I don't see the problem with a big engine - other than getting the head to stay on.... Depending on where you are, there are gurus in Scotland on Imp engines. Ricky Gauld is one,and Harry Simpson knows a trick or two as well.



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:39 pm
Posts: 12Location: Bo'nessJoined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Agreed- a G15 has to have an imp engine. I just wanted to try to get clarification on what's allowed in A7 as I have the luxury of building from scratch, basically. So a MSA specialist production road car is fine, and added period modifications are fine too. Out to the garage...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:42 pm
User avatarPosts: 1809Location: InverebrieJoined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:56 pm
It is the other way around - period modifications only, within the context of the MSA definition of a Specialist Production car. For example, while induction is 'free' so far as the MSA is concerned, you are limited to what was available in period.



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:52 pm
Posts: 12Location: Bo'nessJoined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Yes, I meant that, no throttle bodies for example, but twin webers ok


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:08 pm
Posts: 270Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:10 pm
Stakhanovite wrote:
Hi yes, I'll be speaking to Rob, but am I being told that there's nothing in writing covering what's allowed in addition to the MSA specialist production road going regs in relation to A7?




As a general principle, the MSA Regs are, unless it says you can do it, then you can't (see J5.1 of the Blue Book)



As others have mentioned, give Rob a call and have a chat. He doesn't bite and its much easier to discuss planned mods than undo them.



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:18 pm
Posts: 12Location: Bo'nessJoined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 pm
Thanks Renny

I've been in touch with Rob who's provided very helpful guidance.

Cheers

S


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